Hello.

My prediction: Suddenly EVE becomes much more fun...

Your point being?

Or do you actually think I should let them ruin the way I play the game instead? Because, and no mistake, they're trying to. They've been trying to since before I even started playing.

Concord, crimewatch, insurance nerfs, nerf after nerf after nerf, and all to make the way I play the game harder and harder, tightening the noose without end.

And I'm supposed to believe that they couldn't manage to take a nerf themselves? I'm supposed to believe that they deserve to be left alone at this point? That I shouldn't seize every opportunity to hang them with their own rope? That I'm supposed to "live and let live" while they try to legislate me out of existence?

And all because they say "I'll quit" if the slightest talk of tipping the scales in my favor occurs? Because they say they'll flip over the checkerboard if they don't win?

**** no.

You have lots of examples of the latter to show, then, since it's apparently so commonGǪ?

The difference is, I'm the one playing the game correctly.

But if you're trying to play it like other people don't exist? If you think you get to be immune to other people in a multiplayer game? That is playing it wrong.

Clearly, you haven't spent enough time harassing highsec miners. They're some of the biggest culprits. Mission runners too, have a tendency to explode when you interact with them in any way that breaks their fugue state.

Although since you said lowsec I'd love to know precisely what activity you pursue.

TBH a good percentage of casual players who prefer to carebear eventually leave after 6 months to a year anyway.

Good thing nobody's suggesting anything of the sort.

I want to introduce more risk into their lives.

Make wardecs generate killrights on anyone who leaves corp during a war. That'll do for starters.

Its a question of scale. We can supply the high ends just fine but we dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends, these need to be imported.

Oh? Well, since I'm sure you bothered to read what I was replying to, why don't you tell me your thoughts on the matter?

There's a fool born every minute, but even in eve I don't think many would view an offer from GS to "Come out, you stay neutral and mine, I promise we won't shoot you, wink wink" to be even a remote possibility.

There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us.

We dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends.

Been there and done that and surprise surprise it didn't work, why, because who the hell wants to log onto to a game and watch somebody mine for a few hours not getting any isk?

Why should people spend hours watching other people mine (earn isk) when they have not?

Why no as they are 2 different things.

The easiest way to protect against ganking is to fit a decent tank, set standings to known gankers so they show red in local.

Chances are they will gank the poor unsuspecting sod next to you with zero tank.

If a gankers want to kill you they will, it is something that you have to accept.

I know as I have ganked and had ganks attempted on me.

Most ganks were successful and all attempts on me failed.

As for mining in null, it is different as with ganking its all about the Alpha, in null alpha does not matter.

A Defence Fleet is not going to stop you getting ganked.

Another issue is say you have a 15 man defence fleet to protect your mining fleet in null.

Say the Op is to last 2 hours. During those 2 hours those guys in the defence fleet could be out ratting / running anons earning isk, instead you are asking them to watch people mine for 2 hours.

Yay.. watching somebody mine for 2 hours, not boring or tedious at all.

Do they not deserve to earn isk or have fun during those 2 hours? Now if you are going to pay them its an additional cost, if you don't they simply will not log on for that Op and you can't blame them.

So mine without a defence fleet, possible, sure, just go don't afk to watch a film or a bio break, nip to the shops to get some beer / ciggies, grab a shower etc whilst your mining because if you miss that Intel report or a red logging on in your system your dead.

In null there is no concord to blap the guy shooting you.

It's not more relevant.

It's much, much less feasible.

A mining fleet with guards in nullsec space is nothing except more killmails than a mining fleet by itself.

Because no matter how many guys you put in the defense fleet short of TiDi levels of large, all it's going to do is make them batphone more black ops.

When you get hotdropped, you have no choice whether you fight or not. The problem is, that if I am trying to bait out and kill a black ops team, there is better bait out there than a carebear mining fleet.

But I wouldn't be trying to bait out a black ops team. I would be trying to let you guys do your thing and make me stuff. Which wouldn't happen.

"picket line"? Do you know what a cyno is?

"how often is the enemy going to be able to field a fleet to go after you?"

Most people keep black ops teams on standby, so... every time they find the miners. All day, every day. You can't exactly hide that many people.

"Hurt them bad enough that they can't field fleet against you any more"

What, you mean like killing their miners? Wait, they don't have that particular massive point of vulnerability.

Do you not know how black ops works?

The issue from an industry point of view is that it doesn't matter if no mining ships pops and all live, its that is you will not be able to mine.

So you can launch mining op after mining op but if they are only going to last say 30mins or an hour before they have to dock because of a red fleet how long do you think those miners are going to last in null?

What they can earn from mining in null is not going to make up that short fall.

If you were to improve player built stations then industry in null would receive a boost and everybody wins.

This is so ignorant it's not funny anymore. Who in the blue blazes salvages pirate missions? And properly fit T3 are still very hard to scan.

My game was considerably more fulfilling when I could kill a miner in a 15 mil isk ship. I used to solo kill these bastards in a catalyst and now I need a brutix?

Maybe you should learn to be pvp bro

Incursion nerf also happened in low and null
Loot tables also happened in low and null
Meta drops also happened in low and null
Insurance fraud was a stupid thing that everyone did everywhere they could get hold of cheap BS.
Bounty pauyouts were nerfed in low and null at the same time, null saw two more nerfs to bounties that year.
Shiptosting is impossible to nerf.

Null has seen nerf after nerf to its income that have only impacted null.

*Forsaken nerf, ended farming via blaster ships.
*Anom nerf, CCP wanted us to fight over the "handful of good anom systems" and so, nerfed the vast bulk of systems to work off truesec.


At the same time that these nerfs happened high sec income was buffed with the addition of incursions for one and SOE ships (plus more high sec level 4 SOE agents) with the other.

No **** null has seen nerf after nerf. So has every sector as we mentioned many times.

That would be true if it were possible for everyone to enjoy that level of income in nullsec.

But it's not possible. Hence this discussion in the first place.

Nerfs that effect other areas of space are not nerfs to highsec, they are nerfs to everything...

High end anom nerfs on the other hand, are nerfs to just nullsec.

Industry in any area but highsec is entirely unviable

Personal income is far more viable in highsec than anywhere else. While the individual upper bounds of nullsec may be higher, they are subtractive, and thus not sustainable for any significant population size. As opposed to L4s, which can be done by hundreds of people without end, ever, in near total safety.

make highsec less safe by some means, so that more loss can be generated.

This is about game balance. If there is no reason to go to null then people will not go to null, if the only way to fix the game is to nerf high sec then thats what must happen.

These forsaken sites could not be run like the ones in sov null. It was a nerf to sov null to stop activity only happening in sov nul.

Well there is the fact that we have made CCP fix several bugs and pushed to fix several more broken areas.

Tech nerf. Who just also happened to own most of the tech moons again?

They couldn't run them like in null sov because they have no access to sov upgrades. It is impossible to do what we were doing outside of sov space.

The nerf was only aimed at sov space.

Tech was by far the best moon to own for years. We said it was a bad change when they nerfed the old moneypot that BoB owned in fortress delve.

Or, you just give people the ability to wardec NPC corps in exchange for being locked out of that corp's stations.

I think it's a way to actually interact with other players. More than currently is allowed, in any case.

And it wouldn't be locking other people out of stations, you'd be locking yourself out, in exchange for deccing the NPC corp.

Once again however, just a suggestion. Highsec needs to be less safe, this is my preferred option instead of actually nerfing their income.

Because as much of the problem as their income, is the almost zero losses taken while doing so.

... like a bad Michael Jackson video.

no, you haven't

its a case of high sec giving the best safety coupled with rewards better than null.

doesn't show what the average pilot can expect for personal income
doesn't show distribution of income among nullsec players
doesn't address the number of pilots null can sustain
doesn't address the issue of truesec
doesn't address newbie income in nullsec
doesn't address manufacturing/industry issues

doesn't indicate if nullsec's worth the time doing anoms or why anyone's doing them

although an argument is only true if the premises are true that doesn't mean you actually flip out and demand devblogs for everything. i think the numbers people say they get for anoms are reasonably close and that's all i need. besides that, the issues of truesec, capacity, industry and newbie income are undeniable


noone wants to make anyone go anywhere stop saying that

The poster said he made 22 bil in null sec in 2 months. That's great. You know where else you can make 22 bil in 2 months?

High Sec. Without having to watch local. Protected by CONCORD. 22 bil in 2 months in 366 mil a day, thats nothing in incursions, sisters mission, thukker missions , cosmos farming, and smart blitzing.

This weekend I am going to go to Lannxsi as Jenn aSide has suggested and run L4 missions for 4 hours. If Jenn aSide would be kind enough to give me suggestions about which missions to decline and which ones to actually blitz so that I can maximize this amount I would be grateful. It will make for a more accurate comparison I think. I believe the current claim is that one can make 150-180m per hour.

Of course! Any argument without the data is irrelevant and impotent.

If there are any specific datum that people require please let me know.

If anyone else is interested in running L4s in Lanngisi, I would encourage that to increase the sample size and provide possibly more accurate data based on an average.

The standings hit for repeatedly declining missions is trivial. You'll make it up with the story lines you do so much more frequently now that you're blitzing missions. In each group of 16 missions you'll be able to decline 3-8 depending on whether you get mats for war or something actually worth running (standings-wise).

Corp and faction standing is boosted and enemy faction standing takes a hit.

Total earned per hour in 4 hours (67,865,081 + 48,265,464.00)/4 = 29,032,636

What it is not is anywhere near 90m ISK/hr.

Once again, your lies of omission are hilarious.

150mil/hr was the incursion figure.

I also chose 100-120 mil for missions as thats more the norm although 180 mil is easily doable in SOE missions.

Kimmi isn't doing SoE. Are you?

I'm actually considering setting up base in an SOE system. I need to find the time to make the move with my mission runner.

And if you are, which item do you have chosen to sell for? Which agents are you planning on running, with which ones as a backup if you have to decline? How are you planning on mitigating travel times?

Come on then, let's have the specifics, since you're claiming to be the subject matter expert here.

This is a good point and one that I think really needs addressing.

I can not comment on this as I do not have data or evidence to back it up BUT

Assuming that Mission X for a Navy Clone mission gives the same LP as Mission X for SOE.
Assuming also that the sec status of the Navy Clone and SOE agents are the same.

Can it be said that LP amount, not ISK value of the LP, is the same?

My first mission, The Assault, awarded 4539 LP. Abagawa and Osmon are both 0.6 systems so if we assume that an SOE Level 4 agent in Osmon gives the same amount of LP for the same mission then the amount of LP gain would be similar or identical as well.

The fact that the LP for SOE trades higher than Navy Clone is related to the player driven economy and is not something CCP likely wants to intervene in and I doubt anyone really wants them intervening in such a thing as it sets a dangerous precedent.

But yes, Hivas is NOT an SOE agent.

If I exchanged my LP for the highest SOE rate (Sisters Core Scanner Probe) my total ISK/hr goes from 29,032,636.00 to 37,441,718.00

Baltec aside, my assertion has been between 60 and 90 in highsec, which I maintain is still quite easily doable.

I would also like to point out that Kimmi is basically not salvaging, and seemingly not using an MTU. Which would take a fairly hefty cut off the total.

Heck, even going to the correct corporation was a 28% increase in her profits by itself. I suspect that she can hit 60 with ease once we've streamlined her process and/or fit.

I see you ignored the first part where I stated what the norm is.

It is.

But its not the norm.

No you wont. Your bias will kick in and you will half heartedly try at best and then bounce around saying look I told you ect and then ignore people pointing out why you did so badly. Its the same thing we faced when we pointed out both the FW and pre nerf incursion income levels.

If null sec offers more income than high then why are most of null players earning isk in high sec? Why did just about all of the bots move to high sec to run missions which need more complicated bot programes?

Dont you think the people with a reputation for manipulating every source of income to the highest levels possible no matter the risk or effort eould be in their own sov null space if it was better rater than grinding missions in high sec?

The fix is so easy too, just stop mission blitzing. Boom, anoms are back in and the casual gamer everyone uses to stop any nerfs wont even notice.

We have years of numbers behind us. We have seen the slow progress of null income lowering while high sec income has grown. When even the bots abandon null you know there is a problem. Any attempt by yourself will of course be biased because you are anti any nerf to highsec. Unlike you we do care about overall balance of this game. We have demanded nerfs even though they would massivly hurt us.

I'll bug tippia about getting hold of a thread by someone who did a bigger test on these missions. I cannot for tbe life of me find it.

Only they do earn that much, hell, I just posted a fine example showing that level 3 missions will net you more isk than kimmi was earning in their level 4 test.

Can you tell me where you saw this post? I've been reading this entire thread and keeping up to date on it and, my apologies, I do not recall Baltec or any other poster ever mentioning cutting high sec income by any specific amount, let alon 50%.

Thanks!

Its an exclusive word you gain access to for paying :tenbux:. And yes it does make me cooler than you :colbert:.

Yeah the highsec pubbies keep moving the goal posts and we keep calling them on it. We haven't moved our goal posts in that highsec reward is still too high for the risk posed.

You want parameters okay here's parameters:

-Nullsec/WH reward: 100%,

-Lowsec reward: 80%,

-Highsec reward 50%.

There we go it balances out the risk : reward. That means the maximum a highsec player can make per hour should be half of what nullsec players make

This whole thread is a moot point.
The next nerf of high sec is already in the can, and we get to hear about it in a few months.

I mentioned it earlier, and will make the point again.
Jester in his blog weeks ago danced on the edge of the NDA, stating flatly the the direction Eve was headed in was not for everyone, and too bad for the group that did not like it. Recently, he went on about a new "feature" that will anger many.

Given the newest theme of CCP's, that being "the empires are losing their grasp", only someone completely obtuse, or utterly cynical, would say that the group about to get hammered with these changes is null sec.

High sec is about to get slammed, hard.
Very very soon, the cartel owned POCO's will be the least of the invasive attacks by null sec on high sec.

If CCP nerfed highsec the people who play exclusively in highsec would just accept the changes and keep playing exclusively in highsec until they get bored and move on to another game, while people in low/null would keep doing what they're doing and making alts to do in highsec what they usually do.... in other words nothing would happen.

Stoicfaux provided the proof there is evidence of ~100m isk/hr from highsec missions and I provided proof that ~70m isk/hr for drone hub ratting. All of this stuff has been provided but, you all don't read it and continue to scream as loud as you can that highsec is fine. The only one of you that even attempted to prove this was Kimmi the others are either terminally stupid or shitposting. There's been plenty of proof provided by the pro-nullsec crowd and yet all the pro-highsec crowd, aside from a select few, is scream incoherently.

If removing blitzing isn't enough then the other two ideas that haven't been addressed are stretching missions through multiple systems or adding high HP low isk/LP enemies to missions.

Oddly I've never paid attention, I think if they drifted I would have noticed at some point.

The completion times are long enough that I have docked up, halfway through a mission, went to dinner, stopped and had a couple drinks with a friend on the way home and STILL got the completion time bonus.

They are in no way indicative of actual completion times unless you are using an assualt frig or something silly like that.

It doesnt matter if a lot of people don't do it, it matters because the people from null can do it and are doing it.

We have told you we are doing this, we have shown you that we can do this and we have told you how to do this. Yet people still continue trying to say its not happening. We have infact provided you with more evidence than we provided to CCP when we were abusing FW to make tens of billions.

Several hours at least. Only way to fail them is to forget to turn them in before you go to bed or work.

I do listen but, I expect you to make a cogent argument against the topic at hand and not a strawman. If you decided to do something stupid like that I'm not going to take you seriously or give you a good response. Its proof it occurs and can occur with a moderately skilled pilot, 1-2 year old pilots. "Think of the newbies" doesn't work in this context because newbies don't run L4s. I agree though that the newbies should be considered and if we're going to do that it means decreasing the income from L4 and L3 then giving it to L1 and L2. That way new players have better access to income and it also achieves the highsec income nerf.

His sample is representative enough and if you want to get data to prove otherwise surveymonkey is free go ahead, prove his data is not representative. You just stating stuff doesn't mean a thing.

Since destuction drives the EVE economy, null (and low and WH) residents are doing more than their fair share in keeping up the demand that drives the economy, while high sec (where the vast majority of EVE online characters reside) isn't coming any where near pulling it's own weight

Except her point is still right. High sec does not drive the economy because not enough stuff are lost there. Anytime lots of stuff are lost in high sec, it's because some idiot overloaded his freighter.